Booger Scelus wrote:

Your fault for making gun rental.

Not really, that was just to make guns easier to obtain even if it was for a short time.

Tim_Rocks wrote:

Booger Scelus wrote:

Your fault for making gun rental.

Not really, that was just to make guns easier to obtain even if it was for a short time.

Took like 5 mil out of the economy. what else has done that? oh yeah nothing.

Make getting kills worth more...

Just fix the gun stats so every weapon is obtainable.

Booger Scelus wrote:

Tim_Rocks wrote:

Booger Scelus wrote:

Your fault for making gun rental.

Not really, that was just to make guns easier to obtain even if it was for a short time.

Took like 5 mil out of the economy. what else has done that? oh yeah nothing.

The Gun Rentals is one of the few things allowing the less financially adept players to use good weapons and compete.

The mall has removed nearly 1m, auctions upon auctions have removed more than anything else... probably 100m+. Updating house levels and such has probably removed a million or so. Lotto taxes, revives, and all job essentials (shovels, tnt, batts) have also probably removed some millions.

Oh yeah, nothing.
------

The things that were actually bad for the economy were as follows (Order of Damage):
A. Chris Vimes Management, USDing and spawning crisis. (including Exolia and Motive/Zoo with their spawning; as well as Chris' post-managerial staff positions)
B. Alfonso's Raffle System, 'Hey let's give out million dollar guns to random people since I utterly suck at my job and everyone hates me.'
C. Adding the MVP shop and Flak, Bow, etc. to the EC shop.

Basically anything that added expensive items to the economy without the monetary backing to support it.

Don't think hard statistics of weapons has anything at all to do with the obtainability or the economy as a whole. So adjust your argument or like... actually get a legitimate one.

Just to clear the air, the weapon rental shop has taken out 3.6 mil out of the economy. The mall has taken 800k out of the economy, but also players have exchanged over 10 mil in cash through the mall.

Tim_Rocks wrote:

Case closed!

So it seems like the prices are exactly what's wrong here. Also I really hate the reload on shotguns, so that might be something worth changing. As for the pricing, if you think they're off, place the correct shop value, and pawn value in here and we will look into it and decide if it's worth changing.

The way I see it, the main problem with the guns on era is that their prices don't match their stats.

There are two paths to the ultimate goal; one which has the potential to fix part of the economy and pricing structure errors(Make the prices match the guns), and one which could have potentially game-changing results (make the guns match the prices)

The paths aren't mutually exclusive, but taking both paths would basically be redo-ing the whole gun system.

The easier one is obviously to change the prices, but it only addresses the economic side of the problem, and not the balance side. (Though I'm in favor of setting new stats for the guns, not reverting back to the old ones or keeping the current ones.)


I made a spreadsheet in google docs that illustrates my idea for a new pricing structure, but I'm unable to post links on this forum.

Maybe in a week ;P

The problem I see with making the stats match their price is the fact that someone like Tk will try and buy all the guns and once he has all of them he'll start charging what ever he wants and he'll be begging the guns admin to change the stats because he now owns them all and they're all rare now.

Tim_Rocks wrote:

The problem I see with making the stats match their price is the fact that someone like Tk will try and buy all the guns and once he has all of them he'll start charging what ever he wants and he'll be begging the guns admin to change the stats because he now owns them all and they're all rare now.

That's what the pawn shop is for bro. Exactly what Fiber said just do that but don't make the fucking limits like the BAR and Luger with like 33% return that's stupid as fuck.

I'm also going to script a ratio system that will compare the damage/freeze/pause of a gun and it will calculate what the best gun is according to that and I'll begin pricing them like that.

Tim_Rocks wrote:

I'm also going to script a ratio system that will compare the damage/freeze/pause of a gun and it will calculate what the best gun is according to that and I'll begin pricing them like that.

Get experienced players to help you with this so you don't misjudge the qualitative to quantitative

fiberwire wrote:

I voted to change the stats back to the original ones, but only because changing them to new unique stats wasn't an option.

Here are some examples of flaws with the current guns:
-A lot of the prices don't make sense for the guns.
The HK416 and M4 could probably do with switching prices, since the M4 has the exact same stats plus 2-shot mode and costs 100k less in the shop. The P90's 15 damage and .15 freeze make it one of the worst guns, price-performance wise.

-The top tier guns, i.e. the only guns worth using, are about 3-10x as expensive as a middle-tier gun, but only 33% better. (referring to the 2:3 ratio of freeze.)
One of the biggest issues, though not strictly a gun stats issue, is the exclusivity of guns, and management not fixing problems with gun stats/prices to avoid pissing off the uppercrust of era, when they only make up 20% of the players. There's no reason any gun should be over a mil. This is more of an economic, rather than stats problem though.

-Some guns just aren't worth using, because an AK47 is better. (i.e. anything with more than .15 freeze, that doesn't do more than 20 damage. The SG556 and AP7s come to mind.) Angels, though not the same scenario as SG556 and AP7s, are in just as bad a spot. Angels were easily 50-60k each before. Now they're 30k each or less. Horrible rate of fire, horrible freeze, not worth using.

-Weapons that cost ECs and MVP coins suck.
before the Great Nerf of 2011, the Bow was 200-300k, the Flak was 200-400k, the MP5 SD was 300k, the Samurai Sword was 500-600k, The PL-9 Laser was 100-200k, the LS was 300-400k.

-Shotguns are rarely seen anymore due to their ridiculous reload times. It takes literally 7 seconds to reload all 20 shots of a PL-9 shotgun. Which is about 20x longer than it takes to reload an MP5. The other shotguns aren't much better.

-Gang guns are the best/are competitive with the best guns in the game. This isn't a major problem in my eyes, because the gang guns have to be earned, but then so does 1.5mil to buy a gun. Not a HUGE deal really, but I'd be remiss to exclude the issue altogether.

-Sellback values for guns are completely inconsistent. Some guns, such as the BAR, Luger, as M4 had their sellback values lowered so people would be more reluctant to sell them to the shop. Interfering with the economy in that way just causes artificially low rarity (double negative, I know) because people would rather hold onto a gun they don't like than lose 200k.
As for the guns whose sellback values weren't engineered to reduce the number of sellbacks, The ratio of Shop Price:Sellback Value is all over the place.

To give a few examples:
Taurus - sells back for 18.75% of its shop price.
M3 - 14.28%
G36c - 87.5%
MS - 71.42$
ACR - 76.47%
BAR - 57.14%
Luger - 26.66%

When you guys hired Fiber, he wasn't allowed to touch the stats only the GFX. I think it should of been vice versa. No offense fiber. Only because i stick by my word, you ruined the ove

The approach I planned to take, as far as pricing goes, was to allow the effects of the statistical changes to mellow in for a firm period of time (which can't get much firmer at this point, lol).

After these changes had fixated in the economy, I planned on, very meticulously, going through the trade logs of each weapon and finding the values that way. Then, I'd have taken the average of these array of values and added a 10-15% (subject to change) increase to it and made this (average trade-value + 10-15%) the shop cost.

Despite the length of time this process may have taken (1-3 weeks), the measure of accuracy could not be matched. I would've essentially taken exactly how much the server valued an item (after statistical change) and used that as its pricing basis.

This accuracy displayed above cannot be matched by any other measure due to the fact that other measures base prices off one variable which is untrue. Weapon prices are, or should be, determined by other variables in addition to stats. There's rarity, street-regard, and etc. All these things factor into the pricing of a weapon. Therefore, the most ideal measure is to take the result of these factors combined, and base our new prices off that.

Just a thought.

Tim_Rocks wrote:

I'm also going to script a ratio system that will compare the damage/freeze/pause of a gun and it will calculate what the best gun is according to that and I'll begin pricing them like that.

Done that

IMO the gun lending system and gun rental system...?

Doesnt work at all... well it does but the rich just lend their friends good guns and shit and the poor once again... suffer.


How do you fix the economy Tim? You can't. Not at this point. There is no possible way to add something that will fix it.

What you need to do is to fix it so it doesnt get out of hand then reset and let the economy work properly.

Let people earn shit again and actually work for stuff.

People will cry and complain. But in the end it'll refresh Era and bring more livelihood.

You have a new Map, New Business Models, new Gang Systems. But you don't have any economy Tim. I think that's your biggest challenge and I personally believe you know what needs to be done to fix it.

You can't just keep adding new shit in because the wealthy and the rich just keep getting whatever is added. The rich get richer on era thats it.

I can't really just reset the server. The problem is Era is now a gralet server and resetting it would delete items that were legit paid for with actual money.

One way we could do it is by restoring paid items, but to what extent should I do that for?

Tim_Rocks wrote:

I can't really just reset the server. The problem is Era is now a gralet server and resetting it would delete items that were legit paid for with actual money.

One way we could do it is by restoring paid items, but to what extent should I do that for?

You'd do that to better improve Era?

You got stuck with a shitty economy that has been broken for the last 6 years. Everyone can tell you that the economy is fucked up.

If you present yourself to Era and properly explain to them the bonuses of stabilizing an economy, and how much more lively era could become if a reset of the economy was made alot of people would be for it.

Era maintains a solidified playercount, given the state which graal is in.
I hate to break it to you, the economic issues really AREN'T that large of a deterrent for players. Honestly, the ONLY thing hindering new ones from starting is the issue with prices, which, as Tim stated, will be addressed.

Why should we fix entities that are not broken? New GMAP? New Business Models? To what ends? There's nothing to gain. Era's playerbase is firm, you just need to make minute adjustments to accomodate new player. The economy sucks... yeah... but I don't remember a time when it DIDN'T suck.

Rofl, I mean, OLD ERA? Dude, we all hacked everything. Don't even go there.

Zeross wrote:

Era maintains a solidified playercount, given the state which graal is in.
I hate to break it to you, the economic issues really AREN'T that large of a deterrent for players. Honestly, the ONLY thing hindering new ones from starting is the issue with prices, which, as Tim stated, will be addressed.

Why should we fix entities that are not broken? New GMAP? New Business Models? To what ends? There's nothing to gain. Era's playerbase is firm, you just need to make minute adjustments to accomodate new player. The economy sucks... yeah... but I don't remember a time when it DIDN'T suck.

Rofl, I mean, OLD ERA? Dude, we all hacked everything. Don't even go there.

I don't mean to be rude, but you seriously have the wrong attitude towards dev then.

Not just regarding a reset or anything. But not wanting to improve on things is not the best attitude to have.

If you reset era you'll lose over half of it's current playerbase, gl with that.

Fyi, Zeross's (Wil's) opinion is worthless since he made the current gun stats as he likes them.
Anyways, I'll give you my reasons why the guns must be changed to lower freezes (not the stats as the were before, since Tim told me there's no backup and some guns have largely varied in price):
1. Era is more fun of a game with lower freeze guns. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point.
2. There were more people pking with the old stats. I know that this is also caused by the gang system, but we can definitely say that changing the gun stats did not improve player activity.
3. The polls were clear: only 16-17% of era likes the gun stats as they are currently, and I think I can safely say that nobody is asking for higher freeze guns.
4. More skill was required with the old gun stats. Some of you are probably thinking: "WTF NO YOU'RE LYING, HOLDING D WAS SO EZ". Any decent player does not consider holding D (you're shooting at a set speed so you're highly predictable, other than the fact that you can obtain maximum velocity without having to hold D)or laming as a threat lol. If someone tries to lame you (he'll usually be using strafe at the same time) you can easily circle him and hit him at least twice. It's also REALLY easy to play defensively now (especially in spars): with the old stats if your opponent was playing defensively (for those of you new to era, playing defensive is just as lame as camping on COD) you'd corner him or circle him, trying to keep distance between him and yourself as short as possible. With the new stats it's way easier to hold position (aka play defensively) and way harder to take out defensive players since you can't turn around him quickly, and being cornered is not as much of a disadvantage. You needed to think and click quicker with the old stats to achieve a fast playstyle, whilst now any mediocre player can turn just as fast as anyone else
5. This game used to be more fast-paced. Spars wouldn't last very long and you would have a much harder time to survive in any base.
6. It's way easier to run now. Self-explanatory: shooting 2 bullets from a .05 freeze gun gives you the same freeze of 1 bullet from a .1 freeze gun, therefore when you're chasing someone (this occurs a lot in the current gang bases) you'll have half the chance to catch him now since 1 of your bullets slows you down like 2 bullets with the old stats.
7. If the stats are to be changed well, there would be no impact on the economy (especially cuz most of the guns on the server are pawnable...). I realise that guns like ACR or BAR are underpriced compared to mp5 navy and other guns, and this is why changing the gun stats would be advantageous: you would have the chance to rebalance the gun's stats based on their market price.

I realise how changing the stats of every single gun is a demanding task in time and quality, but I think that the people of Era and reason call for a change.

bloodykiller wrote:

If you reset era you'll lose over half of it's current playerbase, gl with that.

Fyi, Zeross's (Wil's) opinion is worthless since he made the current gun stats as he likes them.
Anyways, I'll give you my reasons why the guns must be changed to lower freezes (not the stats as the were before, since Tim told me there's no backup and some guns have largely varied in price):
1. Era is more fun of a game with lower freeze guns. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point.
2. There were more people pking with the old stats. I know that this is also caused by the gang system, but we can definitely say that changing the gun stats did not improve player activity.
3. The polls were clear: only 16-17% of era likes the gun stats as they are currently, and I think I can safely say that nobody is asking for higher freeze guns.
4. More skill was required with the old gun stats. Some of you are probably thinking: "WTF NO YOU'RE LYING, HOLDING D WAS SO EZ". Any decent player does not consider holding D (you're shooting at a set speed so you're highly predictable, other than the fact that you can obtain maximum velocity without having to hold D)or laming as a threat lol. If someone tries to lame you (he'll usually be using strafe at the same time) you can easily circle him and hit him at least twice. It's also REALLY easy to play defensively now (especially in spars): with the old stats if your opponent was playing defensively (for those of you new to era, playing defensive is just as lame as camping on COD) you'd corner him or circle him, trying to keep distance between him and yourself as short as possible. With the new stats it's way easier to hold position (aka play defensively) and way harder to take out defensive players since you can't turn around him quickly, and being cornered is not as much of a disadvantage. You needed to think and click quicker with the old stats to achieve a fast playstyle, whilst now any mediocre player can turn just as fast as anyone else
5. This game used to be more fast-paced. Spars wouldn't last very long and you would have a much harder time to survive in any base.
6. It's way easier to run now. Self-explanatory: shooting 2 bullets from a .05 freeze gun gives you the same freeze of 1 bullet from a .1 freeze gun, therefore when you're chasing someone (this occurs a lot in the current gang bases) you'll have half the chance to catch him now since 1 of your bullets slows you down like 2 bullets with the old stats.
7. If the stats are to be changed well, there would be no impact on the economy (especially cuz most of the guns on the server are pawnable...). I realise that guns like ACR or BAR are underpriced compared to mp5 navy and other guns, and this is why changing the gun stats would be advantageous: you would have the chance to rebalance the gun's stats based on their market price.

I realise how changing the stats of every single gun is a demanding task in time and quality, but I think that the people of Era and reason call for a change.

.... I read the first point, you're an idiot. Nothing more to it.
You should've read the posts in this thread thoroughly.
Also, quit giving any details in things relevant to skill, you have none... sorry to break it to ya.

lolol no arguments to come back at me? and btw i didn't elaborate on the 1st point cuz everyone knows how much more fun it is with lower freeze guns, even Tim told me that he realises that players enjoyed guns with lower freeze, althought it's not enough to change the guns.
as i see it, alf's management was all a terrible mistake from the gang bases to the gun stats. it destroyed playercount and the gang system. what i don't understand is why wil is still collaborating with staff and even helping create the new bases whilst it was him who brought in avantgarde..it's such a horrible bases that ppl prefer to play ULMS rather than raid in it. you say ur so good but you need to change to guns to proove it? i'd like to remind you all the as soon as Wil got staff he immdeiately nerfed the RPG (it was sold in shops, yet i was the only player using the rpg after it's rockets got slowed down) since he was tired of going negative (yes, Wil would often have neg points while facing BH) and he waited 2-3 weeks before he even touched any other gun.

lol, I said I'm not doubting you that it was more fun, but the point is, I'm not just going to change the freeze of guns by .05 just so you can have an even better gun.

o.O what you don't realise is that i'm not the only person playing this game..it would make it more fun for everyone, and prices would not come into account unless the stats are changed poorly.
that's why i said that "fun" isn't enough (although it kinda should be enough since videogames r about fun, and if you can make your own game more fun why not? xD) to change them, but i've come up with 6 other points and nobody has found any flaws in them yet. changing the guns in the 1st place was the terrible mistake..nobody was asking for it. even the day after the change (when every1 should be excited), a poll was made on the official forums and the vast majority of people wanted the stats as they were before

I didn't read your post, but the stats themselves aren't being changed.

I'm going for the jugular...

1. Era is more fun of a game with lower freeze guns. I don't think I need to elaborate on this point.

That's a matter of opinion. Therefore, it is not a contributing nor harming aspect to your argument. It is useless. Don't mention it again, twit.

2. There were more people pking with the old stats. I know that this is also caused by the gang system, but we can definitely say that changing the gun stats did not improve player activity.

This is not a factor to be analyzed. You have too large factors in play, alongside the overall declining state of GraalOnline as a game. Non-isolated factors cannot be introduced into a sound argument without first sifting out other possibilities. Don't mention it again, twit.

3. The polls were clear: only 16-17% of era likes the gun stats as they are currently, and I think I can safely say that nobody is asking for higher freeze guns.

The Polls really don't hold any substance. I can log on 40 trials and add 40 votes to wherever I want. Do not use non-fail-proof entities within a sound argument, its unsightly. Twit.

4. More skill was required with the old gun stats.

You held/hold d, hence why the current system bugs you so much. The less freeze time, the easier it is to hold d and beyond that, the less you have to PAY for missing a shot. In this system, if you spray everywhere, you'll pay for it. Therefore, you must be accurate and timely with your shot. This did not exist before, you did not have to take wise shots, you just sprayed everywhere (due to lack of consequence). This argument, is therefore, invalid due to a flaw in logic. Less freeze after a shot factually allows you to take more shots and still move adequately, meaning less consequence per shot. This generally denotes less skill required. Try again, twit.

5. This game used to be more fast-paced. Spars wouldn't last very long and you would have a much harder time to survive in any base.

The pace of the game only changed for those unable to adapt to skill-based sparring, i.e. you. My spars still last an average of 3-7 seconds; as before. However, in a logical form: if you're spraying everywhere in .05 freeze, you're faster and let off more shots. Allowing more bullets to miss and/or hit. Yet, the SAME volume of bullets at .1 freeze, will be detrimental to your gameplay and certainly "slow" you down.

Therefore, change your style of sparring from spray and pray, and you may see positive results. Twit.

6. It's way easier to run now.

It was just as easy to run then. We are all equal speed, therefore if I put my gun away and run from you, the distance between you and I will never get any smaller. This is beyond logical speculation and has made itself a scientific law (one of Newton's). Therefore, this point is invalid. Twit.

7. If the stats are to be changed well, there would be no impact on the economy (especially cuz most of the guns on the server are pawnable...).

One of the largest concerns with Era guns are the prices as well as their pawn-prices, we established this earlier in this thread. Please read readily-available information before submitting an argument... twit.

There, all of your points are deemed retarded. Now, rather than wasting your time whining, go learn how to spar. Twit.